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Angry Caique

Plumesol

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Get that bird to another vet. Be sure he gets a CBC and xray. Something is going on and missing it would be really sad. If everything is in fact normal, maybe an anxiolytic drug could help you to calm him down and work with him but especially if he's starting to bite his foot, IT IS NOT NORMAL ! Get another opinion please....
I'm saying that as caique owner and an avian vet...
 

rockybird

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Hi Donna, I see you're in Scottsdale. I am in Phoenix. I'm worried that youre little guy might be in pain for some reason.

Which vet do you use? I take my birds to Dr. Svoboda. He is not an avian vet, but he is the best vet I have found for my parrots. He does have parrots as pets. He was recommended to me by two other parrot owners who have tried different vets in the area. I live in Arcadia, so it's a little bit of a drive to his part of town, but well worth it. I take my caique there every 6-8 weeks to be groomed, especially the beak. He is great. He calls me back whenever I have medical questions about my birds even if he hasnt seen them recently. He saved my conure's life when she got a seed stuck in her palate, also. Anyway, maybe it's worth asking his opinion? I have also heard Dr. Driggers in Gilbert is good. If you do go see him, have his office get the test results from the other office so he can look at them. He did this for a sick conure I fostered and it saved a lot of money not having to repeat or do unnecessary testing.

Palm Glen Animal Hospital Veterinarians Phoenix, AZ 623-688-5362
 

JAM

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A shot in the dark here but with Lois mentioning the iron in pasta and you having fed him pasta maybe there's been a slow build up of that which has eventually led to behavioural signs?

I know with lories and soft bills iron storage disease is a danger, so we feed low iron diets, are Caiques maybe sensitive to it as well? Worth looking into?
 

Jesi

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I think you should take him out f the room with the 9 birds, put him somewhere where it's semi quiet, him by him self, the surroundings could be stressing him out, I don't trust vets to much as is, I had a problem with my Hanhs macaw, she had problems breathing and I brought her to the vet, got her x rayed and everything they said it was cancer because there was a weird looking object in her lungs, so they gave me medication in the mean time for her and she ended up dying a day later, we seen her gasp for air one last time, seen what was in her mouth pulled it out and it was a stand of spiggetti, I gave her CPR right away a soon as I got it out witch took me like 5 seconds cause it was right there. She didn't end up making it, your bird could be stressing out, it's just like humans if we get stressed out to much stuff goes wrong, you could switch his pellets with different pellets, might work on the eating part, and possibly give him some time alone for a few days
 

Donna Leonard

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Thanks to everyone who is giving me input on Armand. Rockybird, I take him to Dr. Ross Babcock at Palo Verde Animal Hospital off the I 51 and Northern. Initially before all this happened he was going to Ira Ingram at All Creatures Animal Hospital but he does not do birds so much any more. Dr. Babcock is a good bird vet, he saved my Eclectus who got egg bound and then needed a hysterectomy. It was expensive but at least I have my bird. Anyway, that is a looooong story. Dr. Babcock will call me daily and any time I need anything I can reach him and he will go in to the office for emergencies. I can't ask for better than that! Thank you for your vet recommendation it can be my backup plan!
I have cut out the pasta in his diet, and replaced it with dandelion greens and kale. I have put him away from everyone like Jesi suggested and this morning he seems much calmer. He did not scream, he let me pet his beak. I gave him veggies and he ate. I checked again later and he chirped at me. Every few hours I go in and he is interested in seeing me and lets me touch him through the bars. So far it is working to have him by himself. Hopefully this is all in his head and nothing more serious that that. I am going to let him chill for another few days and go very slowly doing anything with him. Of course, that does not explain why he went beserk in the kitchen a few days ago when there were no birds around. I will continue to read your comments and I will keep everyone posted on the progress. Again, thank you everyone for trying to help Armand and me! :hug8:
 

Donna Leonard

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Oh, to Plumesol, he did have a complete blood work run in September when this whole thing started. Dr. Babcock did not see anything that really concerned him and we just went over all those results again the other day. We did discuss the anti-anxiety drugs but he said there is a side effect......sudden death in birds so I decided that would be a last resort. We never discussed doing an x-ray but I will keep that in mind if things go downhill again. Thank you!
 

Donna Leonard

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If any of you get a chance, watch this video I found on youtube. It is someone else's caique but it is exactly what Armand does and if you notice he is picking at his feet a bit.


I offered him a finger to step up but I got the same reaction as you see on this video. At least he is not attacking me.
 

halfthewords

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Wow, that is an angry cake! :eek: Pippin looked very alarmed when I played the vid. :lol:

Seconding the second opinion idea. It certainly can't hurt!
 

crystaljam

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Yup - that's an angry Cake!
 

Laurul Feather Cat

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Your vet is correct, you are handling your bird too much. I thought at first he was coming out of his cage on his own and then getting aggressive toward you, when all along you have been towelling him to get him out of his cage. It is no wonder he is upset and aggressive toward you; he does not trust you one little bit because you are constantly FORCING yourself on him. If you really want to have a relationship with your birds, back off and let them learn to trust you. What you are doing now is called flooding and you are forcing your birds to interact with you, not giving them a choice.
 

Donna Leonard

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I have to towel Armand to get him out to clean his cage once a week, I don't leave him with poop all over the bars. He also has to be weighed first thing in the morning after he does his first poop so the vet has a record of his weight. YOU stick your hand in there and get him out. I am not going after him with a towel for fun or for no reason. I let him come out and go in by himself while he is away from the other birds.
 

Laurul Feather Cat

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You do not understand what you are doing to your birds. You are not giving them a chance to be themselves and you are forcing yourself on them. Birds react to this kind of treatment by becoming hand shy and resistant to interacting to humans. Birds are not like dogs and cats, birds are NOT domesticated animals. Unlike puppies, the birds are not looking for an owner to take care of them; birds are still wild animals and in the wild they form close and deep emotional and trusting relationships with one another. The way you are treating your birds they will never trust you or make an emotional and trusting relationship with you.

I am really sorry to criticize you and the way you are interacting with your birds, but you do not seem to understand how to interact with a parrot. Parrots are prey creatures in their wild habitat, always on guard against being attacked and eaten. You going after them with a towel to weigh them and remove them from the cage is the same to them as being attacked by a predator; the only difference is they get to live and go through the entire attack again the next day! If you want to have a good trusting and emotionally satisfying relationship with your birds, you need to all them to call the shots, when they want to interact and when they want to be left alone.

I think that is what your vet was trying to tell you and unless you change your outlook about how to treat birds, your birds will get more and more aggressive toward you and eventually will be unhandlable by you. Please try to understand what I am telling you. If you have doubts about what I am saying, ask your vet and this time listen to him.
 

Laurie

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My Caiques would eat me alive if I toweled them. I reserve that only for emergencies and fortunately haven't had any yet.

Did you know that over time you can actually train them to do almost anything that you need them to do. You could train Armand to go in and out of his cage when you need him too. You can also train him to step on a scale voluntarily. It is never too late to start and never too soon :)

As has been mentioned it does sound like Armand has become afraid of you. His "anger" as your put it which it more correctly termed aggression and most likely is not actually anger but possibly more akin to fear or anxiety, is most likely caused because he has had so many negative interactions with you. I realize that much of it is do to things that you feel are necessary but if you want to have a good relationship with him again. You will definitely have to work on building trust and positive interactions and avoid the toweling at all costs barring health and life. I know you want to enjoy a better relationship with your little friend and I can tell that it distresses you that it has come to be like it currently is.

The good news is that their is hope! :)

I do not want to go against what you vet says but it seems to me that unless he is under some kind of care or experiencing health problems you do not need to weigh him everyday. If you have been weighing him daily and his weight is stable then you might ask your vet if you can weigh him weekly or monthly especially since it is so stressful for him. In the meantime, you should work towards training him to get on a scale voluntarily. (I'll post more on that later).

Does he have an extra cage or a play area he can sit when you clean his cage. Where do you usually put him when you are cleaning his cage? Let me know and I will see if we can suggest a better way to transfer him from his cage to the other area and back again.

To get started training you will need to think about what Armand's favorite treat is then you will have to reserve those treats only for training and not give them to him at any other time. Also you might research "target training" or "targeting" because that is probably where you will want to start.

Let me know if you are interested in more info on training. And I am sure we can help you get started.
 

Donna Leonard

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Hi Laurie , I have never had a problem with Armand until September. For 10 years this bird has been out and played with and we had a great relationship he had neve bitten me or been nasty except for some brief periods of screeching in the spring and fall for the last few years only. Something happened in September, I have no idea what. Nothing changed in his enviornment at all. Nothing happened outside his room or outside his window. Right now there is no play area for him outside his cage because I have moved him away from the other birds, they were really irritating to him. What really sets him off is the vaccum cleaner which I have stopped using around him and changing the papers on the bottom of his cage irritates him. This never bothered him before. If I have to go in to do anything inside his cage I have to do it carefully and keep everything in the front by the door. If I let him out on top of his cage then he will hold on to the top or door and looks like he wants to come to me. I slowly give him a finger to step up on but he won't budge and if I get too close he screams and attacks his foot. He is in a large size travel cage away from the other birds because he used to hang on the back of his cage and scream at my blue crowns all day. He always has been next to their cage, that never changed. I have stopped the weighing for now. If he goes to the floor he runs and there is no way he will step up, not even on a perch or a boing or anything and therefore I have to towel him to catch him or, as I have found, put his cage on the floor and eventually he will go inside by himself. Like I said, this started in September when what I will call the "hormonal" attack issue began. It seems odd that for the second week he was on the Baytril he was fantastic and for 2 months after that he was back to his normal wonderful self, he came out, he played, he snuggled, and now this happens again. I cannot believe it is because he is afraid of me or that I am forcing myself on him. The bird can't be afraid of me, then not be afraid for 2 months and then be afraid again, it makes no sense. Something else is happening here. Maybe something is there medically we are not catching!
 

JAM

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I don't know if it helps with me giving you a brief run down on what happened with M-Star (she's a lorikeet not caique by the way but hear me out).

M-Star was my bubba, she loved me I loved her until one day she refused to come out of her cage. She shook like someone had hit her and she was petrified of anyone and everyone especially me. :( This went in for weeks and weeks, vet checks all turned out okay we were perplexed and so was the vet. The only thing we could maybe align it with was a cage change, we had upgraded her cage to Blue's as Red had moved in with Blue. M-Star had spent most of her time invading the larger cages and was hard to coax out of them. The initial behaviour change hadn't triggered on the day of the cage change but it was within that week.

I resigned myself to having a bird that was hands off and we then went away on holiday. Well, the day we came back was like picking up a different bird. She was all over me and TALKING!!! Something she hadn't done before!!! It was amazing.
The next day however she reverted back to her paralysing fear and I was devastated. So I resigned myself to it being a one off. The day after was another change she was talking and all over me so I analysed MY behaviour and took the pressure off M-Star. I no longer consciously or unconsciously WANTED her attention and gave her space or even the cold shoulder when she felt like it wasn't a "mum and me day". Over time out relationship matured into a respect relationship and I know assess each day with her. I can now tell when she's in a cuddly mood or hands off mood (she too will nip to tell me off or if I persist she will latch on and chew/bite to scold me for not listening to her).

Maybe whilst getting a second opinion from a CAV you can see whether letting the pressure off Armand can assist to alter his behaviour with you. It's only when I literally resigned myself to no longer having the hand raised bird I was EXPECTING. That M-Star maybe felt less pressure and was able to work with me to rebuild what we had lost.

Food for thought?
 

Laurie

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Hi Laurie , I have never had a problem with Armand until September. For 10 years this bird has been out and played with and we had a great relationship he had neve bitten me or been nasty except for some brief periods of screeching in the spring and fall for the last few years only. Something happened in September, I have no idea what. Nothing changed in his enviornment at all. Nothing happened outside his room or outside his window. Right now there is no play area for him outside his cage because I have moved him away from the other birds, they were really irritating to him. What really sets him off is the vaccum cleaner which I have stopped using around him and changing the papers on the bottom of his cage irritates him. This never bothered him before. If I have to go in to do anything inside his cage I have to do it carefully and keep everything in the front by the door. If I let him out on top of his cage then he will hold on to the top or door and looks like he wants to come to me. I slowly give him a finger to step up on but he won't budge and if I get too close he screams and attacks his foot. He is in a large size travel cage away from the other birds because he used to hang on the back of his cage and scream at my blue crowns all day. He always has been next to their cage, that never changed. I have stopped the weighing for now. If he goes to the floor he runs and there is no way he will step up, not even on a perch or a boing or anything and therefore I have to towel him to catch him or, as I have found, put his cage on the floor and eventually he will go inside by himself. Like I said, this started in September when what I will call the "hormonal" attack issue began. It seems odd that for the second week he was on the Baytril he was fantastic and for 2 months after that he was back to his normal wonderful self, he came out, he played, he snuggled, and now this happens again. I cannot believe it is because he is afraid of me or that I am forcing myself on him. The bird can't be afraid of me, then not be afraid for 2 months and then be afraid again, it makes no sense. Something else is happening here. Maybe something is there medically we are not catching!
It really is strange Donna. It can be so puzzling sometimes.

If it is medical then you'll have to keep working on that with the vet.

If it is behavioral then you really will need to carefully and methodically try and figure out what is setting him off. The next time he does something that is not normal or one of the behaviors that you would like to change like the foot biting then you should pay really close attention to everything that happened just before the incident. Write it down, what did you do, what happened in the room, was there a noise, anything, did someone enter or leave a room, what time of day is it? If you can keep track of exactly what happens immediately before (the preceding seconds before), during and after the incident you may see a pattern emerge. Once you evaluate the pattern you can start working on a solution. It may mean you have to change whatever it is that is setting him off (if you figure it out) or you may have to train him to do something else other than what he is currently doing when he is triggered.

Finding the cause of what is setting him off is the only way you can come up with a solution.

Whatever is affecting him is obviously affecting your relationship with him and most likely affecting his relationship with you. Even though well intentioned and sometimes unavoidable, every time you make him do something he does not want to do it will cause him to trust you less. Caiques don't take kindly to being told what to do, let alone forced. I am sure that you know this. I definitely don't mean it as personal criticism. I am just stating a fact.

Maybe he had decided that he no longer wants to allow you in his territory. His cage. If that is the case then you need to respect that. If you can get him to come out and go to another carrier or cage so that you can service his then you need to do that.

Are you able to handle him at all? Do you two have any positive interactions these days? No matter how long he has been your buddy, if the positive interactions cease and only the unpleasant ones occur, you will no longer be able to handle him. You may have to take a good look at how he is currently behaving and set aside an expectations that you have based on how he used to be. Start working with him as if he is a new bird and you have to win his cooperation and affection. Adjusting how you think of him may help you to arrive at a solution or at least a plan of attack.

What is the one thing that you most would like to see change first? Perhaps we can help you to work on one thing as a time.

Please keep us posted. I know everyone here really wants the best for you and your bird. Sometimes it can be a challenge but you already have 10 years invested with the little guy. Surely you can work it out. We are all here to support you. :)
 

Debbie

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Just now seeing this...I did have a Caique for 15 years...and other than the usual summer hormonal stuff the first few years he was a fantastic bird. There was one time when I had to give him and a couple of my other birds medication for 10 days. Well my Caique figured out what I was doing after day 1. By day 2 he didn't want much part of the medicine, but I managed to get him and get it in him. With my other birds after the medicine bit was over everything went back to normal. But for Rascal my Caique he no longer trusted me. You could see it in his eyes. He didn't go crazy, but everytime I asked him to step up on my hand I got this look like I don't trust you anymore. To his credit he never did bite me, but it took 6 whole months until that look disappeared from his eyes. My understanding of Caiques is that they can become phobic and lose trust. And it sure sounds like this could be what has happened here. If so it could take a long time to gain this back. If he does not like to be towelled and you keep on doing it, well mentally he cannot heal. Sometimes you can play towel games with them...but I would try to get him to step up on a perch, or let him come out on his own. The one thing I leaned from having my
Caique is that they have very long memories....During this period I did worry that I had lost his trust forever, which believe me it was killing me because up until that point he had been a fantastic bird. I do know the vet you go to...he actually saved one of my birds also a long time ago....Caiques are not as trusting as say a budgie or tiel. Also watch you energy level...you want to be very calm for now when you are near him. I can see how this can be so frusturating for you...It may even be worth it to try to contact Sally Blanchard, I know she will charge for a phone consult, but she had a Caique for over 20 years and it might be worth the money. She also has written some books that might be helpful...
Keep us updated..
 

Maxsmom

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Some excellent advice being given. Please do not take it personal and consider what is being said. I saw a phenomenal avian vet for 8 years. I credited this amazing vet for extending my tiel's life for 8 years. My tiel was an extreme egg layer. I adored my tiel and was so thankful for my avian vet's expertise. I would never have considered entrusting my bird to another vet as I considered him the best. But in my bird's last 4 days of life we were forced to see 5 other vets due to lack of availability of my vet. I was pretty scared to see other vets but I knew we were facing the end. I learned different things from these alternative vets who had different perspectives. I learned my vet and his protege missed certain signs. A young vet at an animal hospital who was referring to a text book (that scared me because I thought well how much does she know if she is looking in a book) discovered a tumor....no one else caught it. My treasured vet's protege said something years prior that may have led to discovery but the theory had been dismissed. My bird died of cancer and regardless I know my vet had given me 8 more years and I doubt the cancer could have been treated in such a small bird. I continue to be thankful for my vet and his protege but did learn it is good to get alternative opinions.

Long post to say consider alternative opinions. Seek another vet. Get new lab work. A lot of time has passed since last labs. Consider putting your caique in a very large cage and not in a room with 9 other birds. Losing over 10% of body weight seems to warrant more avian vet advice. Consider consulting with a parrot behavior consultant. All suggestions from previous posts. Consider. Wishing you best.
 
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Donna Leonard

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Thanks everyone for your comments. I had Armand in a large travel cage in a room alone with nice sun by the window and he has been calm as long as I don't try anything with him. I brought him in that cage to the kitchen for Christmas Eve and he behaved and let my neigbor scratch his head and love him through the cage bars for quite some time. Yesterday I put the piillowcase wrapped on my hand and he stepped up nicely, not scared and came out. I took it off my hand and offered him a finger. Once on my hand he started to attack. I left him alone and tried again a few times but every time he attacked me once he stepped up. He finally flew to the floor and I sat on the rug with him quietly and he came over. I held his upper beak with two fingers gently and gave him lovies and pets and he accepted this nicely. We had a good 10 or 15 minute session like this. Today I have given him a much bigger cage, I just cannot keep him in that relatively small travel cage forever. I left him alone for about an hour then went in and sat without moving (or breathing) to observe him. When I came in he was very mad, started screeching but then he was pacing back and forth on a shelf and rubbing his beak on the bars a lot and doing a lot of chirping..not really his nice chirps but something inbetween with a small bit of screech to it. He went down grabbed a carrot and when back up and started again. Finallly he settled down and I left the room quietly. I am not pushing his buttons at all now, leaving him alone and only going in to change water, check food and make sure he is OK. I am on the edge of running blood work again and I have contacted a rescue who has not responded yet about a behavior consultant.
 
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